Am I Still Pentecostal? - A Reflection

Ever have one of those reflective moments and ask yourself what exactly are you? I wrote about being a Pentecostal a long time ago in my "Why I Am a..." Series. Even then I was having trouble holding on to it and it is not just because I had bad experiences with my former denomination the Assemblies of God. Now I am even less sure about it.
I still believe God does stuff, but I do not believe God does fluff.
1. God still heals, but I am pretty sure he does not need a person to jump and shout and scream to do so.
2. I believe tongues and prophecy are still valid today, but I think the doctrine of the initial physical evidence and everything that goes with it is unnecessary rot.
3. I feel that God can make people do odd things, but sometimes I wonder about the legit nature of some I have seen such as being slain in the Spirit or holy laughter. It seems that these have no real purpose other than to demonstrate why some people should have power over others, especially when they push people over.
Don't get me wrong, God is not boxed up for me, but I have never really actually seen people just waiting for God and, without any coaching, God causing things to happen. What I have seen is suggestive psychological planting and emotional release. As one preacher put it -- "I prime the pump of people's faith". Right and then we give our tithe to the 'pump primer' I see.
I just find it interesting that when it comes to Pentecostals, they are far more emotional in nature than they are cerebral about their faith. I don't think this illegitimate, just one dimensional. It was why me and people like me felt out of place. It was OK to love God with heart, but not with mind.
I also find it interesting that when it comes to gross sin and sin justified, anybody seem to be able to say -- "The Spirit told me it was OK." Really, the HOLY Spirit told you it was OK to sin?
I guess I am trying to find what true Pentecostalism is and maybe there is no such animal. I do like the attitude of believers on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:
1. Waiting on God promise (for ten days no less)
2. Praying
3. In one accord
4. In one place
There is church I would love to be a part of. One that would, because of Pentecost, become in awe of God and unified like no church has been since. At least none that I am aware of anyway. Perhaps I simply am not ready myself to be a part of such a thing, I simply may not have the maturity of faith yet, or maybe I simply do not understand (which is quite likely) what it takes yet. It is very likely more deep than heart or mind. Deeper that I can spiritually fathom right now.
Jury still out, but I feel farther from what I knew as Pentecostalism than ever, Real Pentecostalism I am beginning to see may be deeper than that.
I guess I am trying to find is real spiritual power. The power to give faith to others; faith that moves mountains. Stuff, not fluff.

Previous: Why I Am a God Lover

Prayer and the Problem of Evil - Part 1 -- Conditions and Possiblities from James

Now I bet there are some out there that have prayed for a dying loved one and have watched them still die. After thinking on that you also came to the conclusion that you prayed in faith and they still died. So did God then lie?


Now I do not believe it was the will of God that death came into the world at least not for humans. The more deterministic camp says so but then they have God being the author of sin and evil and that is out because the Bible is pretty clear God is not the author of these things; He fights them.


Another option is that God knew evil would come and created the world anyway -- makes Him still the author of evil because once He creates the world evil and death are going to come. He still caused them because He could have stopped them by not creating the world in the first place or creating a world where the possibility of evil could not exist.


A third option is God only knew evil as a possibility. This is known as the open view or open theist position (the one I hold) where God sees evil as a possible but not inevitable end, because He has given Mankind a choice. Eat the tree --'death and evil'; don't eat the tree ' no death and no evil'. Both possibilities exist even in God mind and He is ready for either one. Mankind blows it so God begins to work against evil and redeem us from it and it's consequences. God is only responsible for creating the possibility of evil but did not actually create evil or suffering, they are simply the product of the disobedience of the human race.


Now in this evil world God still lets us talk to him and request things from him through prayer, but because of the evil unleashed things are still going to have multiple possibilities and because we still get carnal from time to time we can very much think we are right with God even though we are not. Evil and sin are always there to possibly screw things up.


Two great passages on prayer are both found in James: 4:1-6 and 5:13-18


James 4:1-6 actually offers up several conditions to answered prayer: 1) You have to ask, 2) You must not have wrong motives in particular that we are praying to consume the results on our own lusts with worldly gain of any type, and 3) You must pray in humility. That is in submission to God's desires. Now that is from God perspective, not ours.


James 5:13-18 was a favorite of many when I was in the Pentecostal church. Particularly, the part that says: "and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick...". There was always a heavy emphasis on the WILL part, but once again the conditions were often overlooked 1) calling for the elders of the church 2) anointing with oil but even here the meaning of this is subject to debate -- it could be anoint like in pour on the head or like in the case of the Good Samaritan where oil was used in a medicinal sense. 3) Do it in the name of the Lord -- humility again -- it is His authority not your own. 4) Offer the prayer in faith (Note: this is not the only condition to answered prayer as some would claim). 5)Based on verse 16 there is also confess your sins to one another and prayer for each other.

Given all these conditions one thing is for sure, you are not going to get an answer to prayer just by praying -- there is a lifestyle of holiness, community and faith that must be lived as well. There is also being the part of a church with a trust level high enough where confession of sin to each other is not only possible but brings about forgiveness. Not to mention that there are many other verses in the Bible that offer up conditions to answered prayer.

What this ultimately means is a prayer offers a possibility to God, one which He can choose to take or not to take depending on the spiritual condition of the person praying and their relationship to Him and the church. Praying does not force God's hand it simply gives Him one more thing to choose, but not a possibility that He must to choose.

In prayer, what I think is often forgotten is that God is the one in charge and we really can't tell Him what to do but we can petition Him. How he fulfils His Word is strictly up to Him.

Part 2 - The Lord's Prayer

Why Personal Religious Experience Does Not Prove Christian Faith

I wrote on this in my post on The Second Reformation but perhaps a closer look would help.

A little background on me, I grew up in a Pentecostal church, I have been a pastor of two Pentecostal churches and have had Pentecostal experiences and I still feel things like tongues, healings and miracles happen and are legit, BUT I have also witnessed things that have convinced me that part of the movement has a dark side and more than just a few bad apples. I have witnessed the charlatans on which Steve Martin based his movie Leap of Faith. The tricks are numerous and the doctrines that are used, to be blunt, are absolute crap with one design -- relieving people of their money and the accumulation of power for the preacher. I saw more and more of these as I got deeper into the leadership of the movement. I am now convinced that many will believe anything as long as it thrills their emotions and gives them a feeling of power over their circumstances.

One of the things that frustrates me is how people who have had a religious experience or a 'feeling' of God in their lives use this as absolute proof that God exists and that their faith is the real deal. It does nothing of the kind.

1) All religions and faiths have religious experiences of some kind. If personal religious experience proves faith, then every faith is proven true.
2) The manifestations of tongues, healings and various miracles are not unique to Christianity, other religions have them.
3) In just about every religion in the world there is some claim of special revelation from some divine source.
4) Feelings are not fact, they are not right or wrong -- they are just feelings and the fact is you can have a feeling of spiritual wholeness from a cup of hot chocolate on a cold day. Doesn't prove I should worship hot chocolate.
5) It is hard to prove a religious experience is genuine and given that some are easily manipulated through their emotions, some experiences may not be religious just emotional releases.

I am not saying that they have no value whatsoever but ultimately they are only valuable to the ones who have them and only as a seal of assurance, not as proof of faith.

I believe this is why you can find so many former Pentecostals out there, they start to think too much. I know I was accused of this often. Once you get past the emotional part of the experience, sometimes it was difficult to say what the experience was. What this means ultimately for someone who has based their whole faith on these experiences, is complete despair and disillusionment when they come to the realization that these experiences do not in any way prove their faith is true.

For Christianity, there is only one event at stake and if it is not a historical fact then as Paul says: 'our faith is useless' - The Resurrection. If Jesus did not, in fact, literally walk out that tomb than Christianity is a complete and absolute waste of time and we would be better off 'eating and drinking for tomorrow we die." See First Corinthians 15, if you do not believe me.

The Second Reformation

Well, you have to hand it to Martin Luther, the guy had guts. In our modern language -- balls. What is needed now is a whole bunch of Christians with the same testicular fortitude. Why? Because there is a second reformation of thought needed in the church in the Western World again. There are several reasons I think this is needed:

1. Religious Experience Has Failed to Prove God to a Secular World: Now my former brethren the Pentecostal/Charismatic types are going to hate me for saying this but your experiences with God don't prove a blessed thing. The problem with religious experience is all religious people have them and that extends beyond Christianity. A Quote by a Christian lady on Facebook to my agnostic friend:"we don't need to prove anything to no one because everyday we wake up we can feel God in the wind, in the sunshine. We know clearly there is a God..." Hmmm. I wonder if a Hindu could say the same thing: "We don't need to prove anything to no one because everyday we wake up we can feel Karma in the wind, in the sunshine. We clearly know Karma exists..." See my point? A religious experience or feelings about spirituality only prove something to the one who has them; change the perspective or belief system and experience can be duplicated in other religions. As proof that a faith is ultimately true personal religious experience is for the most part useless. From my own experience in the Pentecostal movement, I have seen preachers fake an extraordinary amount of things and try to teach me how to do it as well. Psychological manipulation is very real in religious societies and so experiences in that regard are not proof of anything but gullibility or emotional need and susceptibility. One thing Christians need to remember is 1 Peter 3:15 -- 'and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you of the reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." That means to anyone at anytime. It is not a waste of time to give a reasoned response to why you believe based on what they understand and believe, in fact I would say it is the command of the Lord.

2. Theological Hardness: On the flip side, reformed thought of the Calvinist variety has so dominated for so long it no longer, or perhaps never had, the flexibility to change in the face of new questions. The answers that convinced people of the truth of Christian faith in the last 300 years no longer work. Reformed theology ultimately just adds fuel to the fire of the problem of evil and in the end seems like an arrogant mind that refuses to budge in the face of Scriptural questions. Many, not just in the Reformed camp have got to the point that no new ideas will be accepted about any doctrine of theology. Meekness (see 1 Peter 3:15 above) is needed to realize that no person has God in a box or completely figured out and to not leave room for change in our thinking is just our pride talking.

3. The Increase of Knowledge. Hate to say it there is so much information and options out there it makes your head spin. I would even say there is a new group of religious folks out there that I can only label the "TryAnythings". The move from one faith to another to try it out and see if it fits. One thing this has caused is a despair that a thing called "TRUTH" even exists. This is all made possible because Christianity is no longer the only game in town and the other options are easily found. The Technology of Today makes any religion no matter what or where it is accessible. This has led to a smarter and more knowledgeable population who have seen a lot and while Christianity may claim uniqueness, they can see similarities and that is what they treat Christianity like any other faith.

How is such a reformation going to happen? I don't think a fat monk is going to come along and nail 95 thesis to the door again, I don't think that the second reformation will belong to any single person. It is about a change of spirit so large that is going to be one of those quiet revolutions that is in many ways already happening. The Emergent Church takes a lot of flak from some corners of Christianity, but at least they are listening to what unbelievers are saying and formulating a response. That is however only one response; there are more.

One thing that is also happening is that Christians are returning to their Bibles and reading them for themselves and formulating new beliefs based on their own reading about God, Salvation and Christ. I am going to say this -- it is about time! It may take the passing of an old guard of thinkers in favor of a new one to make these changes. This means an inflexible denominational systems are going to fail to attract new people as more and more people will want a church where they can be free to believe differently than their brothers and sisters in Christ and still be accepted as part of the family of God.

Technology may provide accessibility to other religions but it also means that information about Christianity is also accessible like never before including about the historical questions about the Scriptures and Jesus Christ. It is also leading to a phenomena I and others call --faith without borders where Christians don't inhabit certain countries anymore with dominate cultures; they are everywhere. Those that are embracing this no longer dominating but permeating the world are part of the reformation to come.

It is already happening and like a snow ball rolling down a hill it will grow and then change everything when it reaches full maturity. The only real thing that stands in its way is a Traditional Protestantism but that is dying. It is just a matter of time.

Engaging God's Problem -- Disagreements with Chapter Five

Chapter 5 of God's Problem by Bart Ehrman's has some problems chief among them is his assumption that god does not intervene in human affairs.

1. Bart makes the statement that if God heals -- why does he not do so today -- heard that before and my response is he does -- I have grown up in Pentecostal churches -- when a person says they have cancer and that the doctors (more than one) have confirmed it and then that person is prayed for and they come back and don't have cancer -- confirmed by the same doctors you have to think something is up. It sounds like Hume when I listen to him on this. "I don't believe in miracles because I don't want to believe in miracles". In addition, he has this -- "God should heal all the time without conditions" attitude.


2. Ehrman talks about being committed to truth and integrity -- but if their is no God to be accountable to about truth then what difference does it make?


3. I think Bart over thinks Grace in pages 128-129 -- he talks about how if a person thanks God for food isn't that person condemning God for not feeding others. Here's the thing -- famine often happens because of short sighted agricultural methods or deliberate starvation of human beings by others -- either through malicious intent or apathy. He quotes the United Nations about the 850million starving stats as well. Yes, I am sure that the UN does not have ulterior motives in saying such things seeing they use such numbers to get more aid from other nations.

4. Why is it that when people want to blame God for everything, they always say that the problem in question is too big for humans to handle? Maybe their just looking for a personal excuse?

5. Says government should do more, quite frankly they cause more problems than they solve.

6. Assumes God always gets his way -- if God's will and his kingdom are a done deal and cannot be messed up than why in Jesus instructions to us in prayer does he ask us to pray that God's will be done and His kingdom come. Seems a strange thing to pray for if both just are and cannot be messed with -- another over reliance on classical theology.

7. Pharoah's hardened heart -- it is not hard to push a person a little harder when they have already demonstrated hardness in the first place. I would also point out for the record that the Egyptians were holding the Israelis as slaves. On the one hand he condemns Solomon for such a practice but here he is saying poor Egyptians forced to be victims of plagues when they are doing the same thing. The Egyptians were not nice people and the people who disobeyed the Passover had some control if they only believed enough to obey.

8. Going back to David's child -- David's own words kind of put this in perspective -- "I will see him again" The fact is what is better -- to live here suffering the stigma of sin and being a bastard child or Paradise. Here is Ehrman's saying poor child, but then turning about and say to be on this planet is suffering -- anybody else see the contradiction.

9. Bart assumes that Paul influence how the gospels are written -- he has no evidence of this other than more higher critical theories but were going to proceed as if it is fact anyway.

10. The Bible does not claim all suffering is redemptive like Ehrman attests on p. 155 (bottom). in fact I would say that sinful suffering is many times senseless and the Bible says this as well.

Next: Agreements with Chapter Six

Why I Am A Pentecostal

Pentecostal -- of, relating to, or constituting any of various Christian religious bodies that emphasize individual experiences of grace, spiritual gifts (as glossolalia and faith healing), expressive worship, and evangelism --Webster

I guess this is the hardest one for me these days, but I still hold to it. I grew up in the Assemblies of God and became ordained in them as well. The difficulty I have now is the fact that I no longer believe in the restrictive nature of Pentecostal theology.

What I mean is that once Pentecostals formulated doctrinal statement, true creative thought about the Holy Spirit and how HE works was lost. The Holy Spirit in my opinion became boxed up and unable to do anything except by the Pentecostal script of how HE works.

1. The Holy Spirit only baptizes people in a certain way and only with certain signs.

2. The Gifts of the Spirit work only this way and not any others.

Then there is the opposite extreme of letting anything go without thought to the Bible.

3."I don't care what the Bible says I know what the Spirit is saying to me"

4. The massive violation of good sense in interpretation of Scripture.


I am a Pentecostal in the sense of what it was like in the early days before Pentecostal denominations.

1. Freethinking about the Holy Spirit with a heavy dose common sense Biblical interpretation.

2. Open to the possibilities but closed to anything outside of Scripture.

This is where I like to be and what Pentecostalism lost when it lost sense and reality. I can only do my part and believe as a Pentecostal believes without losing my way in the mucky muck of twofold nonsense -- strict and closed doctrinal understanding and experiential theology with no Biblical backing.

Why, because I believe in the power of God to do the impossible and to act today in the world. I believe that God has promised healing and power for the believe to minister in this world. I believe in joyful and expressive worship. That's why I am a Pentecostal.

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