Is Hell Justified? -- Part 10 -- Tough Question #4 -- God's Righteousness and Damnation.

Theology is not a science, nor it is an art although it has shadows of both. It is also not some dry exercise of learning doctrine after doctrine with historical analysis to back it up -- it is not about learning somethings; it is about learning who someone is. It is about knowing God.

It is the first and greatest of all human endeavors. Jeremiah spoke to his people long ago "Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast of his strength, let not the rich man boast of his riches; but he who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things" declares the Lord. To know what God delights in is the key to knowing God and to true theology as well. When we delight in what He delights in then we are knowing God in truth; that's when we are practicing theology.

God cannot be apprehended by simple learning alone. It takes the whole being of man. It must involve spirit, mind , heart and strength. My spirit must know and understand God's love, justice and righteousness. My mind must know and understand God's love, justice and righteousness. My heart must know and understand God's love, justice and righteousness. My strength must know and understand God's love, justice and righteousness. When one truly knows God you understand what God understands with your whole being. To me this is the definition of intimacy with God.

That is what makes the doctrine of Hell so difficult. If it was a mere question of Scriptural support I would be pulled between two opinions. Both sides have scripture. The Annihilation Side has the understandings of the frequently repeated terms of "death, destroyed, perish" that appear in many passages regarding final judgment. The Torment Side has the frequent mentions of "weeping, gnashing of teeth, smoke of their torment, etc." Now both sides can dispute the definitions of these things in both directions. There is ultimately no clear winner and historically -- this has been a debated point in the church for its entire existence.

So I am left with trying to Know God through trying to understand a simple question: Why Hell?

My strength waits -- deciding which to back; it takes sides and becomes the depths of my convictions when all other things fail. But where there is no sureness, my strength waits.

My heart recoils at the prospect of eternal torment, embracing the relative compassion of annihilation. On the other hand, It embraces the prospect of justice for the innocent victims of the wicked through torment and recoils at the thought of the wicked just getting off with simple non-existence.

My mind embraces the Scriptures on both sides. Seeing both are supported but not supported. The battlefield of my mind still in conflict in much the same way as my heart but with Scripture as the pieces and philosophy trying to decide who has won the victory. My heart and mind battle waiting for some new piece of information, understanding or thought to tip the scale.

My spirit submits to God that regardless of what end there is -- God is righteous. the one thing i can say with assurance with all the other things I know of God -- "The Lord of the earth will do right" It also in God's righteousness that perhaps the rest of me will then follow.

What is right for God. In his love he must show mercy, In justice he brings right to wrongs. In his righteousness he is right in how he exercises both.

I also believe that both sides are right and the same time wrong. I think there also is a reconciliation. One verse, which at first seems insignificant but has great significance -- Revelation 20:14. Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Two separate places; two separate purposes. God doesn't create redundancy where it is not needed. Hades is a temporary place to be swallowed up later by the lake of fire. It is, in my mind, because they have tow very separate and different purposes.

Hades -- a place of waiting for the end. It is temporary and has two sides: the place of torment for the wicked and Abraham's bosom for the righteous. It is a place that is described as a place where those who receive good things in life experience torment where those who receive bad things in life -- receive blessing. It indicates a place where the injustices of this world are righted. Where God's love is expressed to the victims, his justice to the wicked is done and all things that are wrong are righted. it may have the possibility of being the place of final redemption.

The Lake of Fire -- the place of final cleansing and elimination of all that opposes God's will. It is the final curtain for the devil, the false prophet and the beast meet their end. Along with any person who refuses to wilfully bow their knew to Christ. Gone -- poof. Ended. In this God justly removes those that would continue to be a thorn in the side of Him and mankind. In mercy he simply removes them. Mercy both for them and those that love them they leave behind. In the end no one will say God did not do right.

My biggest problem with the usual discussion on this is that this twofold place and purpose are never looked at by people. Both are merged into one and that is not the case.

Yet, it is in God righteousness I will trust -- because if I am right -- OK. If i am wrong -- OK. Because the Lord of the Earth will do right in the end regardless of which side of the coin it eventually falls on. That is something I can get my whole being behind.

Finis.

Is Hell Justified? -- Part 9 -- Tough Question #3 -- God's Love and Damnation.

Now this gets a little harder. If God's justice stands against annihilation then God's love stands against eternal torment. Or perhaps it is the way we perceive God's love that stands against it. Eternal Torment - - I wonder how many Christians fathom the concept? Think on it long and hard -- it will keep you up nights , if not for others, for yourself. Eternal punishment, burning forever in a lake of fire. For what? -- not submitting to God, disobedience, etc. all in a defined and limited time and space. If God loves all people and desires all to come to repentance why then would he eternally torture people for something they did in only a short time. It sounds like God's love must end at the border of such a place. Sorry it is a big -- "I Don't Love You" to torture a person for all eternity with no hope of escape.

This is probably the greatest reason people give up on God -- how can a loving God do this? More importantly how can God who IS love do this? It is too much for some and honestly this is one thing that has caused my faith shake at times -- it caused this whole series of posts to pursue this question because I still have questions.

Perhaps this is the tough part -- reconciling the justice of God with his love. On the one hand we want people who are wicked to be punished and victims to receive justice. On the other I too like Boyd and many others would be moved with compassion if I was near such a place watching my friends and loved ones burned alive for eternity. I think people who do not have a problem with this have never seen a person burned alive or wondered about it. Perhaps though the answer does not reside in either God's love or justice but in that which binds the two -- His Righteousness.

Next: God's Righteousness and Damnation.

Is Hell Justified? -- Part 8 -- Tough Question #2 -- God's Justice and Damnation.

The real issue involving Hell is twofold when it comes to God.

1. How can a God who is just not punish the wicked and do away with evil?

2. How can a God who is love punish people for all eternity for some thing they did in only a short time?

I want to use this post to deal with the first problem.

There are many people who look at this evil world and wonder where the justice is. The cold reality is many time people do thing that are wicked and evil and get away with it. They don't just do small things either. There are the mass murders, rapists and serial killers of the world and for many people the thought is that god will put it all right when it comes to His justice. The simple belief for many Christians is that even if a person escapes justice in this world, they will not escape the justice of God. Hell is part of this belief in justice, in particular that the punishment will fit the crime. I think it becomes morally unsatisfying if a mass murderer, like Hitler, simply gets winked out of existence.

This is one of the problems with the annihilation theory -- it simply stands by itself with no way of God meeting out true justice. It may ultimately be bad for the person who is annihilated but what of the victims and their satisfaction. God is very clear about the 'eye for and eye' thing as a standard of justice -- He wrote it. And what of the martyrs in Revelation who cry out for vengeance for their blood? Simply put annihilation just does not answer the problem of justice -- of the punishment fitting the crime. It seems too light a punishment for evil.

This is where those who believe in torment have a case -- people who are wicked face real pain for what they have done and satisfaction is given for the victims of their sins. The only problem is what about the love of God and the standard of justice being 'eye for eye' is that at what point is it gone past equality and into the realm of torture. But that is the subject of the next post.

Next: God's Love and Damnation.

Is Hell Justified? -- Part 7 -- Tough Question #1 -- Torment or Annihilation?

Back to Hell. Sorry couldn't resist. Above is an old illustration of the Rich Man in Hades.

The big question here is does the Bible present a picture of eternal torment or annihilation? I have always been one who believed in eternal torment until I began to truly analyze the Scriptures and what the annihilation theory was saying. They too have Biblical support and the question has one debated in the church since the very beginning. The only problem i ever had and why I dismissed it is that they need the story of the rich man to be a parable and thus not to be taken literally. They NEED this; or so I thought.

On the torment side I felt the weakness was more philosophical. Like my old professor at Asbury Dr. Jerry Walls, who wrote Hell: The Logic of Damnation, I have felt that it is inconsistent with the love of God to torment someone for all eternity for something they did in a temporal or closed existence.

One of my readers and a good writer herself, Paula Titus, has theorized that perhaps eternal torment is necessary because our sinful actions have eternal consequences to others they require eternal punishment. I admit this is strong theory but one which I have some concerns. One is that after doing a detailed study of Ecclesiastes, I can readily declare that not one single temporal action will last. Everything we are and do will be lost to death and the passage of time. No consequence of anything including things done in sin will last. They will be swallowed up in the victory of God's grace and justice. I simply do not see the idea that our actions have eternal consequences simply because God is the Omega -- not us.

Secondly because of that grace and justice and the promise of god's final victory through reconciliation, I would say a place of eternal punishment would stand against that idea of reconciliation. Everyone could look and point to Hell and ask:"If you have final victory God and have reconciled all things to yourself, why do they still live in torment? They are not reconciled are they?" It is a legitimate question.

Not as easy as you think being a theologian -- all this thinking gives one a headache but occasionally there are moments. Both side have in my mind a fatal flaw, unless we have all missed something I really can't buy wither one at the present time. But I think we have missed something in the simple fact that Hades and the Lake of Fire are two different places and may actually have two different purposes. I think that this new view I have cobbled together may have some merit and it also fulfils some of my concerns about the justice of God in relationship to hell.

Next: The Justice of God and Damnation.

Is Hell Justified? -- Part 6 -- The Purpose of Hell

OK. What is the purpose of Hell? Now to recap the working theory is that Hades/Sheol is the place of waiting for the final judgment with the Lake of Fire as that place of final judgment where God brings aobut final justice. Now the question is that needs to be answered is twofold. What is the purpose of Hades and what is the purpose of the lake of fire?

Hades -- I think Luke 16:19-31 actually provides us the best explanation of the purpose of Hades/Sheol -- Abraham's words indicate that Lazarus is now receiving good things because in life he did not receive good things. The rich man the opposite is true.

I think deep within the heart of man has always existed the desire for justice and the raw fact is that many time justice does not take place. The 18 year old prostitute is beat to death by an unknown assailant but the police do not give any effort to finding the murder because she is a prostitute-- the killer is never found. Crimes without number like this go unsolved and justice is never done on this earth. Hades is the place where these wrongs are righted -- justice is served. In Hades the prostitute is avenged.

It is a place of the dead where those who received good things in life without care for others find themselves in want. It is also a place where those who receive evil all their lives final receive some good.

Infants who never leave the womb who die by the fault of life or the deliberate hand of men find themselves in a place to choose and grow.

All of these things may be possible in Hades/Sheol. It is simple a place where the shortcomings of this world are righted.

It also may be a place where the dead hear the gospel again -- 1 Peter 4:6 -- "For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God." Now this is an odd verse if everything is settled at physical death. It might also answer part of the criticism people have of God -- "What about the heathen who never hear the gospel?" What if they do hear it? Even more telling is the question about babies -- do they really get to choose their faith in God? Does God simply force them to love him? Or does he give them an opportunity to choose?

In Hades these questions may be answered.

The Lake of Fire -- Unlike Hades the Lake of Fire has an ultimate finality to it. It is the place prepared for the devil and his angels. It is ultimately the place where everything that has gone against the will of God is removed forever.

The question at this point is whether that is served by eternal torture or annihilation. To be sure it is a question that relates to God's purpose for hell but it is also a question of God and his justice as well as desires for the human race.

Next: Tough Questions Considered.

Is Hell Justified? -- Part 5 -- The Nature of Hell

OK. Given all the biblical considerations Boyd presents, I would have to say that his case is good that most of the teaching on final judgment indicates a finality -- death, destruction and perish. The only problem I see is you have to get rid of the 'parable' Jesus teaches in Luke 16:19-31 which I don't actually believe is a parable. That said is there a way to reconcile the two pictures? Does the picture of the Bible leads us to torture or annihilation?

Why not both?

The Luke account is very much a description of what the Jews view of Sheol or the grave that the Jewish people had for centuries, including before Christ. The concept is place of waiting where the justice of God is brought about on a person. The shocking thing to the Jew who heard Jesus' story is that the rich man (supposedly blessed by God) and the Lazarus are flipped. They would have taught and believed it would be the other way around. Contrary to the beliefs of one commenter on this blog the concept of Sheol appears very early in the Bible -- the first writer to use it was in the book of Job which is the oldest written tradition period. This way before the Greeks even existed as a nation.

At the same time, I cannot ignore Boyd and others like him, including many from the early church that say to end something is to end something. They have a point and their reasoning is sound.

Then I see this verse in Revelation 20:14 -- "Then death and Hades were thrown in the lake of fire..."

This indicates two things:

1) These are two separate places: Hades/Sheol is some place separate from the lake of fire.

2) That even Hades (if the lake of fire represents the final destruction, death and perishing Boyd hits on) will to have its end.

So what if Hades/Sheol is the place where the good are blessed and the bad suffer for the lives they lived as represented by Luke 16 but the lake of fire is the final end off all things evil after judgment?

Now I am going to be blunt here -- this satisfies my sense of justice. Is it right for someone like say a Hitler or Attila the Hun to just be disintegrated without suffering something for their crimes? To me it would be fitting for them to suffer every death they ever caused over and over again until the final judgment. Shouldn't the man who burned so many Jews as well as other be burned himself? At the same time, Uncle Larry who was a great guy, never hurt a fly or told a lie, but never accepted Jesus and died in his sins -- what should he suffer?

My working theory is that Sheol is not so much a place of torture but a place of justice being served and inequalities being balanced. Look at Abraham's words to the rich man: "Child, remember that during your life you received your good things; and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here' and you are in agony." I want you to notice the reasoning for why each man is in the place he is in -- one received good in his lifetime but the other bad. Now in Hades/Sheol the situation is reversed by God to make things right. It is not about the book of life or the lamb of God, like the lake of fire in Revelation, but what each person did and received in this life. It is these things that determine what happens in Sheol.

I think I can live with a temporary place of God dispensing justice. The thing I have a hard time with is listening to our loved ones for all eternity cry out in pain for something they did in a short amount of time. It also seems inconsistent with the love of God if someone truly repents -- which they may do in Hades/Sheol -- but God does not honor it. Is Hades also a refiners fire of sorts as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3 as well as a place of an another chance for salvation before judgment? One of my professors, Jerry Walls in his Book Hell the Logic of Damnation explores this possibility and at the time I took his class on the problem of evil, I had to admit he made some good points. He theorized that some people would rather go to Hell -- "Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven" i.e. Paradise Lost by Milton. Is this getting too close to the doctrine of Purgatory? Maybe, but then again, what exactly is Sheol/Hades? Perhaps some would prefer to be annihilated as opposed to serving God?

Maybe Dante had a few things right?

Next: The Purpose of Hell

Is Hell Justified? -- Part 4 Greg Boyd and Eternal Punishment -- Video 3

Seeing this is the hot topic on my blog right now let's continue.

Video 3 -- Greg Boyd and Eternal Punishment

Greg is wrapping up and drawing his conclusions to their final end:

1. His final conclusion is one of 'annihilation' that is anything that does not line up with God's will has its ultimate and complete end. The punishment still is eternal -- that is once a person gone they are gone for eternity.

2. Regardless of what way you interpret these things there are three things that are true:
a) We were created for eternal life, b) The consequence of rejecting god is hell -- regardless of what you mean -- and it is not a good thing. c) The sure way to avoid hell is to completely submit to the Lordship of Christ and thus join the church which is predestined for salvation.

Now, I am going to admit that Greg Boyd's view has a lot of merit. It considers the more common uses of eternal punishment and uses a lot of Scripture. It's one weakness overall is its treatment of Luke 16:19-31 as a parable. It certainly has given my cause for pause to rethink the merits of the annihilist position. As I have done osme historicla research -- the fact si that the early church supported both views. The nature of hell was a big debate.

Next: The Nature of Hell -- Biblical Considerations

Is Hell Justified? -- Part 3 Greg Boyd and Eternal Punishment -- Video 2

Video part 2 -- Greg Boyd and Eternal Punishment -- Part 2

I can first of all applaud Greg for asking the simple question -- Can we look at this a different way? It is the question I am asking so I am glad he is asking it too.

Considerations he is asking us to look at with my responses:

1. Luke 16:19-31 is a parable: Really? Greg makes this point because he does not want the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus to teach us on the nature of hell. However, Jesus never identifies this as a parable nor does the gospel writer. It could be factual story. It is purely speculation that this is a parable. Even so, parables are not completely one point deals. In the case of the first parable Jesus tells -the parable of the sower -- it could be argued that Jesus is making a single point by using four sub points. The interpretive model that parables only make one simple point all the time is overly simplistic and does not consider the individual nature of each parable may be different. In any case, even if this is a parable, it does not indicate that Jesus is being inaccurate about the nature of hell.

The fact is that this view of the afterlife was and still is the notion of the Jews based on interpretation of Old Testament scriptures of Sheol -- the grave. So, Jesus then would be reinforcing this belief by default. At the least -- if this story is not accurately representative of what the afterlife is like, then we have Jesus perpetuating a false notion -- I certainly don't see Christ perpetuating a false notion of anything, but even if this is just a parable by using the common belief of Sheol he is doing so. Jesus was certainly not shy about blasting false beliefs but here we would have Jesus actually using one to illustrate a point? I don't think so.

2. Many metaphors to describe eternal punishment: Greg rightly makes the point that metaphors are the basis of what we understand about hell -- I think most of his observation are accurate on this one.

3. Three most common ways God refers to punishment in the bible: a) death b) destruction and c) perish. "Be as though they have never been" Obadiah 16 is particularly telling. The point he is making is that all of these things have a finality to them and do not indicate a torture type punishment. I agree.

4. The Bible sometimes speaks of things being eternal in consequence not in duration. He makes good points here. This is part of my problem with the doctrine of hell is that is what is indicated most of the time -- the consequence of eternal death is what is indicated -- once your dead a second time your dead it is not a continual dying.

Now, I agree with most of this except the notion of Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. I really do not think it is a parable but an accurate representation of Sheol or the grave. If so, that indicates some sort of punishment for the wicked and reward for the righteous. One thing that can be said though is the parable does not indicate that Sheol is eternal -- the belief is that it is a place of waiting for final judgment. Maybe this is where the idea of purgatory first comes from but I don't think the 'hell' side is redemptive although it could be.

Next: Greg Boyd Video 3

Is Hell Justified? -- Part 2 -- Greg Boyd and Eternal Punishment -- Video 1

The context for this part of the discussion watch Greg Boyd in this video

Luke 16:19-31 provided the backdrop of the discussion. Now I think this story does not actually recount what heaven and hell are like but it is a reinforcement of the Jewish idea of Sheol or the grave. The waiting place for final judgment. It has some marked differences from the idea of eternal fire in Revelation. Here the people are placed in waiting placed and punished or rewarded based on what their life was like on earth. In Revelation, this idea does not appear at all but their the eternal fire has a finality to it based on whoever is in the Lamb's book of life. So Boyd gets off a little wrong in my opinion because I don't believe this story is dealing with the final state after final judgment but a holding place in waiting for final judgment. However he does an excellent job of presenting the problem with traditional thinking on eternal punishment.

Boyd brings up the standard questions in objection to eternal punishment:
1. How can we enjoy heaven when right down the road are people being tortured in flame that I may love and am called to love?
2. How is eternal punishment consistent with the theme that God's anger lasts only for a moment but his love and mercy lasts forever?
3. How is eternal punishment consistent with the teaching God is love?
4. How is eternal punishment consistent with the Bible's teaching regarding God's final victory?

As I watched these points being brought up I can see myself asking the same questions. The issues here are well presented and will serve as the basis for his and our further discussion.

Next: Greg Boyd Video 2

Is Hell Justified? -- Part 1 -- The Main Questions.

On problem that people often work on in dealing with the problem of evil is hell. Now there are at least two major ways to look at hell -- punishment or annihilation. Either way though -- is hell justified? I mean how do we say God is just if God inflicts hell -- an eternal punishment -- for what we do here on earth -- temporal action?

Questions this Series Will Consider:
1. What is the nature of Hell?
2. What is Hell's Purpose?
3. How does God Relate to Hell?
4. Is Hell Justified?

I will be engaging Greg Boyd and his video series on the topic as well.